Response to Sam Shamoun on the holy spirit!

A Response to Sam Shamoun on the holy spirit?

November 9, 2016, by, A. Graham (aka - letusreason)

An extract from a previous discussion with a Trinitarian.

A Typical Trinitarian View of John 14:16, 17.

“John 14:16-17 says the Holy Spirit will be another helper just like Jesus. Why would Jesus say an abstract concept will be another helper? How can it even be close to Jesus? Verse 26 says the Holy Spirit will teach all things and help the disciples remember everything Jesus said. A teacher implies some intelligent entity educating a student. None of that implies an abstract concept.”

John 14:16, 17, 26; 16: 13-15 Trinitarians change pronouns

John 14:16, 17 and John 16:13-15. The NIV & NWT will be used and the original Greek.

 John 14:16, 17

 “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.” NIV

“…and I will request the Father and he will give YOU another helper to be with YOU forever,17the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. YOU know it, because it remains with YOU and is in YOU.” NWT

John 16:13-15

“But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” NIV

“However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming. 14 That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to YOU. 15 All the things that the Father has are mine. That is why I said he receives from what is mine and declares [it] to YOU.” NWT

John 14: 16, 17

 “…καγὼ ἐρωτήσω τὸν πατέρα καὶ ἄλλον παράκλητον δώσει ὑμῖν, ἵνα ᾖ μεθ’ ὑμῶν εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας, ὃ ὁ κόσμος οὐ δύναται λαβεῖν, ὅτι οὐ θεωρεῖ αὐτὸ οὐδὲ γινώσκει· ὑμεῖς γινώσκετε αὐτό, ὅτι παρ’ ὑμῖν μένει καὶ ἐν ὑμῖν ἔστιν.”

Transliterated English

 “…and I will ask the Father and another helper he will give you that he might be with you to the age the spirit of the truth whom the world not is able to receive because not it does see him nor know but you know him for with you he abides and in you will be”

Here we see the English terms “helper” and “he” and at first glance we might think when we see these two terms, that a person is being talked about, after all, is a person not a “helper” at times and a “he” a male person?

In Greek this would be misleading, a red herring, so to speak, as the original Greek is not dealing with actual gender, but grammatical gender, there is no actual ‘male, female or neuter’ involved only grammatical gender and this is what the above is clearly demonstrating, but if a person is only familiar with English, he/she will miss this aspect of Greek altogether and his/her starting point will be wrong to begin with, so his/her conclusion will also be faulty, wrong…!

The term “helper” in Greek is “paracletos” and is a noun, the term “he” is a masculine pronoun! Here is how it works [in Greek, not English] The pronoun “he” looks back to what is called its associated antecedent noun and that noun is “helper” [paracletos] which in Greek is masculine [not feminine or neuter]  Greek demands noun pronoun agreement in regard to the above, so that the pronoun “he” looks back to its associated noun and then looks at the grammatical gender of such noun and then takes on the same grammatical gender of such and since paracletos [helper] is a masculine non, the pronoun likewise takes on the same grammatical gender as its antecedent noun and that is masculine, it does not make the “helper” or “he” a person or ascribe personhood or personality to such, to do so would be to distort, bend the rule for theological, therefore, biased reasons i.e. pre-conceived Trinitarian theological reasons! What about John 16:13-15?

John 16:13-15

 “ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας, ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν ἀλήθειαν πᾶσαν· οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφ’ ἑαυτοῦ, ἀλλ’ ὅσα ἀκούει λαλήσει καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν. ἐκεῖνος ἐμὲ δοξάσει ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ ἐμοῦ λήμψεται καὶ ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν. πάντα ὅσα ἔχει ὁ πατὴρ ἐμά ἐστιν· διὰ τοῦτο εἶπον ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ ἐμοῦ λαμβάνει καὶ ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν.”

Transliterated English

“When however might have come he the spirit of truth he will guide you into the truth all not indeed he will speak from himself but whatever he may hear he will speak and the things coming he will declare to you he me will glorify for of that which [is] mine he will take and declare to you all things whatever has the Father mine are because of this I said that of that which [is] mine he will take and will declare to you”

How are we to understand John 16:13-15? What Trinitarians tend to do is to neglect the overall context and that overall context is seen, not from vss 13-15 only, but from vss 1-15 and since I amusing the NIV…I will stick to that and see what it reveals, from vss 1-15!

Here is John 16:1-15 from the NIV

“All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.4 I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you,5 but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’6 Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things.7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:9 about sin, because people do not believe in me;10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. 12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

Here Jesus tells his disciples that there is going to be trouble ahead…he warns them in advance what to expect…now [Jesus] is going to the Father and tells them:

“Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment.”

Jesus now informs his disciples:

“But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.”

Again we are introduced to the “Advocate” another [English] term for “helper” [paracletos] and the other term “he” and then we are introduced to “the Spirit of truth” and again term “he” tags along!

The “Advocate” is another English term used for the Greek “paracletos”, just as “helper” is, the exact and very same “paracletos” we saw in John 14: 16, 17, no difference! In v7 “Advocate” is a masculine noun and “he” a masculine pronoun and the reason why there is a “he” is, once again, the pronoun looks back to its associated antecedent noun to see which grammatical gender it should take and seeing as “Advocate” [paracletos] is a Greek masculine noun, the pronoun must agree with Greek grammar and so must be masculine, hence the “he” and not “she” or “it”!

Ah, the confident Trinitarian may say, John says, “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.”

The pronoun “he” as in “…when he, the Spirit of truth comes, he will…” The pronoun “he” [see v7] is looking back to “Advocate” the “helper” [paracletos] and it is the “helper” aspect of the “Spirit” [NIV]  “spirit” [NWT] that will guide the disciples, just as it “comforts, reveals…”, and it must be remembered, that "pneuma" (spirit) is a Greek neuter noun, not a masculine one!

Greek Pronouns?

In Greek there are three pronouns, "hos" (masc), "he" (fem) and "ho" (neut). In all of the NT, there is not a single instance of the Greek masculine pronoun "hos" (he, his, him) used of the "pneuma hagios" (holy spirit), thus, if the Trinitarian "Holy Spirit" was a person, one would expect to see at least one occurrence of the Greek masculine "hos" used of such "Holy Spirit", but we find none, but, we do see "hos" used of both Father and Son many times, as they are actual persons, but, not the so-called Trinitarian, "Holy Spirit" and if the later was an actual person, why is there no use of "hos" in connection with 'it'!

NIV

 “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.”

 NWT

 “13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming. 14 That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to YOU.”

The pronoun “he” [NIV] and “that one” NWT is referring to the Greek term “ekeinos”, and this particular pronoun is what is called a ‘demonstrative pronoun’ and the aim or goal of such a pronoun is to point back to something, that was previously spoken about and that something is “paracletos”.

An inquiring mind might ask, why does the NIV use the masculine pronoun “he” whereas, the NWT uses the demonstrative pronoun “that one”?  Since the Trinitarian mentions John 14:26, I will use that as an example, in order to show why “that one” [NWT] is more in agreement with Greek that the NIV i.e. “he”!

Here is what the Trinitarian said,

“Verse 26 says the Holy Spirit will teach all things and help the disciples remember everything Jesus said. A teacher implies some intelligent entity educating a student. None of that implies an abstract concept.”
 

On the surface, this is a reasonable reply, but it is false! Why can I say this? It is because, Trinitarians like Scott posit that their premise is true, but Trinitarians like Scott do not think in Greek, they are accustomed to think in English and that is their problem, they think that what they see from pro-Trinitarian English translations, like the NIV etc. is what is actually meant, but such is not the case – grammatically, contextually…! And seeing as Scott Hess is the one that brought up John 14:26. I will use this as an example, in order to show very clearly how Trinitarian translators play with the text and alter it for theological reasons and bias!

Here is how!

John 14:26 NIV & NWT

“But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” NIV

“But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU.” NWT

Here we see a profound difference in these two translations; the translators of the NIV (like other Trinitarian translations) rework the English from the original Greek to such an extent so as to leave out the ‘demonstrative pronoun’ “that one”! The NASB and the KJV (and other Trinitarian translations) change the demonstrative pronoun “that one” to the personal masculine pronoun “he”; the AB and the NASB even going to the point of changing “he” into “He” thus giving personality to such! This is clearly wrong and biased!

In John 14:26 we see that the *subject* being talked about, is the expression “the holy spirit”, which is a ‘neuter’ expression; “spirit” being a Greek “neuter” term, so, when the Trinitarian translators use the masculine pronoun “he/He” they are taking outright liberties and play on the ignorance of the bible reading public, who haven’t a clue, as to what is being done in the background, behind closed doors…!

Notice how the KJV and the NKJV renders John 14:26

“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” KJV

“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” NKJV

The NKJV [1979] follows in the tradition of most other Trinitarian bibles and veers of course and alters the pronoun from “which” [ho] to “whom” [hos] thus, betraying its translators biased theology! Trinitarian translators do not inform their readers, even in a footnote, what they are doing, as they know very well the uproar it would cause, as readers began to catch on and not just with the NKJV and the like!

Now notice that the KJV translates the original Greek into the English *impersonal* pronoun “which” [ho] and not “whom” [hos] which other Trinitarians translations do! The KJV and the NWT have it correct, whereas, many other translation render the original Greek into a “whom” rather than into a “which”, thus the bias is shown, when knowing Trinitarian translators covert the impersonal into the personal! If one cares to look at the original Greek, one will see that the pronoun “ho” [which, that, this…] is used and not “hos” [he…] but, what the theologically biased Trinitarian translators have done, is to [behind the public’s back is to] change the pronouns around, hoping it will not be noticed by the Greek ignorant church going public, their agenda is their theology and it comes at a price and that price is that they get exposed and such an expose is in this authors paper! See, also: Acts 5:32 and Eph 4:30 as further examples of pronoun abuse by many Trinitarian translators!

I had already written a rebuttal to Trinitarians on this subject, called “pronouns and the holy spirit”, which, for obvious reasons, Trinitarians ignore, as there are plentiful examples, which show the abuse of Trinitarian translators, which examples, coupled with this paper, clearly show that the “pneuma hagion” [holy spirit] is an abstraction, is not a person with personality in spite of what Trinitarians say!

I don’t mind Trinitarians having their own theology, but when Trinitarians start to inject that theology right into the scriptures, that is wrong and thoroughly biased!

Paper on “pronouns and holy spirit”

http://letusreason.thoughts.com/posts/pronouns-and-the-holy-spirit

Andrew Graham 16-3-2013

Here is an important paper by:

by Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D., 1991

The Holy Spirit - A Person or Power?

This Doctrinal Report concerns the Spirit of God. Biblical teaching about the Holy Spirit is clear enough, but the opinions of men (prompted primarily by new theological speculations originating within the fourth century) have clouded the whole issue of a just what the Holy Spirit is, or what its role was in the relationship of God with mankind. It is time that the biblical teachings concerning the Holy Spirit be restored to their proper place of recognition in the minds of those who love the biblical revelation. What I Intend to do in this Doctrinal Report is to present sixteen pertinent questions about the Holy Spirit which will reflect the essential theological factors which determine what the Holy Spirit is, and what its role is in mankind’s relationship with God and Christ. The answers will be clear and should satisfy the pen on who truly wants to understand the biblical teaching on this important subject.
 

Pronouns and the 'holy spirit'?

September 4, 2009 by: Andrew Graham [aka, letusreason]

Many lay Trinitarians are constantly misled by Trinitarian scholars who mistranslate Greek pronouns into the wrong English pronouns, as is seen in texts like John 14:16, 17, and 26 where they translate the Greek ‘holy spirit’ by the English pronouns ‘he, him and whom’! This is rather misleading, wrong and smacks of theological bias! Each noun in Greek is given a specific ‘gender’, which in itself doesn’t suggest gender or being a person…!  

The term ‘holy spirit’ occurs about 87 times in the Greek NT


Nouns & Prepositions

The term ‘holy spirit’ occurs about 87 times in the Greek NT and is to be seen with the definite article [42] and indefinite article [45] just over 40+. And just as a reminder, that in Greek, if a noun does not carry the article, it is normally assumed to be indefinite. If a noun carries the article, it is assumed to be definite. If a noun is used in association with a preposition, i.e. the preposition (prepositional expression) occurs before the noun, the definite article is not always necessary and it is common in Greek to have it dropped, when the noun is used with a preposition. So, technically (Literally) we would have “a holy spirit” or “the holy spirit” and with a preposition [dropping the article “the”] we would have “holy spirit”.

 Andrew Graham