Monday, 1 February 2021

Plato

 PLATO Part III.

Previously, we learned about Pythagoras, Heraclitus, Parmenides and Anaxagoras, in part V we will learn about Plato (c. 428 – c. 347 BCE) student of Socrates; we now move away from the pre-Socratic philosophers to Plato, his younger contemporary and then onto Aristotle and beyond! In this part we will see how Plato postulates his concepts, borrows from Parmenides, his metaphysics, how man can have true knowledge of what is actual, real, that men somehow pre-existed and known about the Forms/Ideas through ‘anamnesis’; the highest of the Forms i.e. The ‘Good’, which is beyond essence (ousia), the demiurge the middleman of creation…!

Plato studied the philosophies of the men who came before him and as such, he rejected some of their ideas, while taking on board others; Plato was an Absolutist, therefore he rejected out of hand Relativism… he held to e.g. standards that were absolute, such as beauty, justice, goodness etc., Plato was, like the philosophers before him a monotheist, which seemed to start with Pythagoras, and Plato taught that the soul was noble and was immortal, trapped in matter and he was somewhat Rationalistic in his outlook, in that man can arrive at true knowledge by means of his power of reason and taught that man cannot come to knowledge by means of his senses, which were of the phenomenal world, because, like Heraclitus, everything was in a state of flux! Plato theorised, that the phenomenal world of the senses was not the real world, of which no permanent knowledge could be had…but that of the unseen, completely separate from the material world in which man lived; he taught that the real world consisted of the world of ‘essences’, which had intelligence, this was the world in which ‘God’ existed in the Pleroma and such was called ‘ousia’ or ‘being’, the expression ‘being’ being another word for the Forms/Ideas, this will be explained in a little more detail as we go along!

Plato took from the previous philosopher; Anaxagoras ‘Dualism’, Plato was a dualist in that he was convinced that there was a complete separation between ‘matter’ and ‘mind’ and that when ‘mind’ comes into contact with ‘matter’ such experiences ‘effect’ i.e. something happens to ‘matter’! To Plato the phenomenal world, the world of the senses and matter, ‘flowed like a river’, there was no permanence (Heraclitus) so the world in which men lived was called ‘becoming’ i.e. it was in a continuous state of or in the process of ‘becoming real/actual’ but never could be, because it was always changing…it was in a constant state or course of development, so could never be or become ‘actual’ God was responsible for this, and with good reason, as far as Plato was concerned! Unlike Parmenides, men were children of both worlds and participated in both, men participated in the material world through their senses and the actual world where God and the Forms were…men had no permanent knowledge of the material world of flux, but man had a true knowledge of the other world because of his ‘reason’, man could get to know the world of the Forms…!

Plato’s World of the Forms/Ideas?
Plato also called the expressions “Forms” or “Ideas” by the term “Ousia”, these were interchangeable terms, the Forms…were things/objects of pure and perfect thought, originators, archetypal…of things that went into make up the world of the senses, these conformed to the perfect and absolutes of the mathematical, geometrical …such as the perfect square, oblong, circle…others of the Forms were of the absolutes, such as love, goodness, beauty, justice…to Plato, what existed as perfects and absolutes in the world of the Pleroma, was reflected, mirrored in the material, observable world and in fact everything in the material world was a pale copy or stamp… of the true or actual, which existed in the immaterial world beyond and invisible to the senses…! To Plato, the Forms were actual existences, non spatial and were in existence long before the minds (reason) of men and the reason why men were able to be aware of the Forms…was because within man there existed a state of ‘anamnesis’ that is, Plato taught that man had a spiritual dimension to him and that was the ‘soul’ which was immaterial and immortal, the spark of the divine within man, this ‘soul’ was omniscient, man somehow knew something…was aware, he could ‘remember’ (anamnesis =remembering) and for Plato, if men could remember then they can proceed to knowledge and more knowledge and more knowledge because of the soul within him and as time went by, if the man was not too distracted and wanted to and didn’t give up, he was able to conceptualise, conceive, envisage…of the Forms…in the Pleroma, it was as if the soul was pushing him, little by little to his true home, one could venture to say, that the more spiritual a man got (because of his reason…) the nearer he got to the world of the Pleroma, a sort of out of body experience…but the living man’s soul was trapped in a body of matter…!

The highest of the Forms was the ‘Good’ which Plato termed ‘God’ the Good was the goal of man at his death, the road taken when man uses his reason and comes to true knowledge…the Good is the Efficient Cause of all that exists and the sustainer of all and because of the Good and by means of the soul and the reason within the minds of men and continuing knowledge by men being accrued the existence of the Forms etc., can become known to man, whatever men come to know…is from the Good!

The Divine Builder ‘Demiurge’ ‘the god’?
Plato postulated, that the phenomenal world at one time didn’t exist, that it was brought into existence, created and it was means of the Demiurge, the divine craftsman “the god” and that it was the demiurge that shaped, fashioned, designed the world of men and all that they see, hear, feel…and such was made from matter that was pre-existent, formless, chaotic; what the demiurge did was to cause the Forms and matter to come into contact with each other and whatever form came into contact with matter, that matter took its ‘form’ (tree, earth, stars, men, dog, beauty, justice, etc., whatever men saw had its absolute and perfect non-spatial counterpart in the realm of the existences [Forms…] above…the Demiurge made order out of chaotic matter, as it was better to have something better, than chaotic, formless inharmonious…matter! What had happened after the work of the demiurge was a universe that was a living thing, a creature possessing mind and reason and this was the purpose of ‘the god’ the demiurge! To Plato mind and soul were inseparable, because without the soul, mind would come to nothing and because the demiurge, ‘the god’ made the universe a living thing, he gave it three things, ‘mind, soul and body’ it was as if, it was a sentient being…and so with man, he too had three things, likewise, ‘mind, soul and body’ and like the universe, was a living thing!, a creature!

Centuries later, there would be those who took a very different view of ‘God’ and ‘Matter’, as ‘Matter’ would become associated with ‘Evil’ and that ‘God’ could not possibly have any connection with ‘evil’ i.e. ‘Matter’ and just before the death of the apostle John, these views were being explored and espoused, by those without and within the Christian congregation, but such matters were not to be taken, as a sudden event, as the Christ and his apostles foretold that such things (deviations = Greek, ‘apostasis’) would take place and in time, the simplicity of the Christ was not enough for many, they wanted to have their ears tickled and wished to accumulate teachers for themselves…eventually, Plato…replaced the Christ, but was dressed up in a peculiar language, so as to fool the masses…the language (technical Greek jargon) of the Trinity was getting ever closer…! Col 2:8; 2 Tim 4:1-5; 2 Pet 3:14-16; 1 John 2:18-21.

Ps 40: 7 "to do your will, O God"; Which "God"?

 Is Jesus God?

Ps 40: 7 NWT
“In view of that, I said: “Here I have come,
In the roll of the book it being written about me.
8 To do your will, O my God, I have delighted,
And your law is within my inward parts.”

Heb 10:5-7 NWT
“Hence when he comes into the world he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. 6 You did not approve of whole burnt offerings and sin [offering].’ 7 Then I said, ‘Look! I am come (in the roll of the book it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’”

“…to do your will, O God” Ps 40:7
“…to do your will, O God” Heb” Heb 10:7

Question:
If Jesus is “God”, then just which “O God’s” will is the God Jesus wanting to do?, Just who is this other “God” i.e. “O God”?

NB,
Other translations read similarly!

Thursday, 14 January 2021

The Word in John 1:1 "who" or "what"?

 A thought for Trinitarians?

I find it interesting, that Trinitarian scholars (not lay Trinitarians*) will readily admit, that John, in John 1:1 was talking about *what* the Word was, not *who* the Word was, as the expression "ton theon" in clause B is the "who", whereas, the "theos" in clause C is the "what" and to assimilate the English term God in clause C with/and the same English term God in clause B, as if the same God was being talked about is tantamount to Modalism, which Trinitarians will deny of course and that is why modern Trinitarians writers (Harner...) tend to emphasise "quality or nature" rather than "identity", as they realise, that the Word cannot be the same God he is with, even if the term God is applied to the Word, which shows two Gods, one supreme the other subordinate [pros ton theon - with/toward the God]. 

Of course, Prof. Philip B. Harner, being a Trinitarian himself, will in saying "the Word" in having the quality/nature of "ton theon" (the God) means for Harner, that "the Word" (Jesus) has "all the quality/nature" of the God he is "pros" (with), thus making him (Jesus) also, as much God as the Father, the God with whom he is with! 

* Many lay Trinitarians with whom I have had discussions are still of the belief, understanding that The term "God" in clause C ("the Word was God") in the God clauses in John 1:1 is a reference to same God in clause B, as they assume that the twice used "English term "God" is a reference to one and the same "God", but they fail to see that the term "God" is used 99.99% of the time with reference to the Father, with few exceptions (John 1:18; Rom 9:5)** "God" in English will correspond with "the God" in Greek, the small % of the time "theos..." is used of "human judges, angels, Jesus, the apostle Paul, Satan", thus, usage of "theos..." for others rather than God is very rare! 

** Some nouns in Greek are naturally definite and do not carry the article, however, context will show who the referent is!









Spirit of Christ - 1 Pet 1:11?

 Responding to JW critics


"Spirit of Christ"?

One critic said: (says) :
"The NWT intentionally mistranslated 1 Peter 1:11 which should read spirit of Christ, while in Romans 8 they translated the same Greek phrase Christ's spirit!"

Here we see English translations, which are Trinitarian, thus, translate, “pneuma”, not as “spirit”, but, “Spirit” and of course, because, such translations are Trinitarian!

Below, is written a response some years ago by a fellow apologist JW on 1 Pet 1:11 to a Trinitarian and one will see, that as with Rev 3:14, a particular Genitive is used and this is the downfall of people like Jevan, who are wholly ignorant!


1 Peter 1:11 "spirit of Christ."

The New International Version renders 1 Peter 1:11 this way:

"trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow."

The New World Translation reads:

"They kept on investigating what particular season or what sort of [season] the spirit in them was indicating concerning Christ when it was bearing witness beforehand about the sufferings for Christ and about the glories to follow these."

A footnote in the New World Translation states: "[v.]11 Or, "the spirit of Christ which was in them indicated."

Why has the NWT Translation Committee opted to render the Greek "TO....PNEUMA XRISTOS," literally, "the....spirit of Christ" as "the spirit in them was indicating concerning Christ"?

It appears that the phrase here "spirit of Christ" has been taken in the genitive of relation.

To give an example of this: John 7:35 literally is "the dispersion of the Greeks" means "scattered among the Greeks."-NIV.

The NIV has used the prepositional word "among" to show the relation of the word "dispersion" with the phrase "of the Greeks."

Another example of this is at Romans 5:18, literally is "DIKAIWSIN ZWHS," "justification of-life." The New International Version translates this as "justification that brings life." When we have this type of genitive then some such prepositional word or phrase is necessary to bring out what kind of relation the words have with each other.

The NWT Translation Committee has understood that the phrase "the...spirit of Christ" is not a reference to Christ's spirit but to the holy spirit of God that, through the prophets of the O.T., foretold about the sufferings that the Christ would have.

Of course, not all will so interpret.

However, note what P. H. Davids in The 1st Epistle of Peter wrote:

"...The identification of "Spirit of Christ," then, shows that it is the spirit’s witness to Christ in the O.T. that is the focus of interest, not the actual pre-existence of Christ which Peter does not mention..."

In a footnote he writes:

"This commentary suspects that he [Peter] has not reached the position clearly seen in John and Hebrews, that is, that there is not enough evidence to argue that he was in fact aware of the concept of the pre-existence of Christ and thus that "Spirit of Christ" most likely refers to the Holy Spirit or "Spirit of God" known in the O.T. times."-The New International Commentaries on the New Testament, Erdmans Publishing Co. Grand Rapids, Michigan, pp 62-63.

M. R. Vincent writes upon the words "EIS XRISTOS"("of Christ"):

"Lit[erally] unto Christ...The suffering destined for Christ, as in ver[se] 10 he speaks of the grace [EIS hUMAS], unto you: i.e., destined to come unto you. Peter was especially concerned to show that the sufferings of Christ were in fulfillment of prophecy, because it was a subject of dispute with the Jews whether the Christ was to suffer (Acts 3:18; 26:22, 23)."-Word Studies in the New Testament, Vol.1, page 302, Macdonald Publishing Company.

See also The First Epistle of St Peter by E.G.Selwyn, page 135, 136.
The "spirit" in 1 Peter 1:11 is not Christ's spirit, but God's holy spirit that inspired the prophets to write concerning the future sufferings of the Christ.

Tuesday, 5 January 2021

John 8:58?

 

John 8:58 



Looking at the grammar behind John 8:58?

 

An Answer To JW critics

By: Andrew Graham ( 23-12-2020)

 

Here is a popular Trinitarian bible on John 8:58:

"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" NIV

Here like many other translations, the word order is back to front! It is Greek word order, not English word order. Greek has ‘object or predicate phrase + verb + subject’, whereas, English has, ‘subject + verb + object or predicate phrase’. When we see in English translations the Greek word order, we call it an idiom!

The verb γενεθαι is aorist middle infinitive.

“The Greek “to be” verb (ειμι) does not have a full paradigm and excludes the perfect and the aorist. This means that there was no tense form to choose from to express a past action of existence up to the present time of speaking and the present tense of the Greek “to be” verb (ειμι) was pressed into service for this purpose*. The PRIN (πριν) clause is temporal and refers to a time before Abraham existed (γενεαθαι aorist middle infinitive). The infinitive gets its time from the controlling verb which in J8:58 is ειμι.” (Thanks to: Timothy Lawson)

 

* Like most Greek verbs in the present tense, as is “eimi”, such verbs express a continued, on-going act or action. (See examples below).

Let us explore the meaning behind the grammatical terms behind the verb:

 
“γενεαθαι”, which is in the “aorist middle infinitive”?

The Aorist is a verb form and one of its functions is to communicate what sort of act or action takes place, it does not in itself necessarily relate to temporality (the time) that such an act or action was taken i.e., “when”! Context usually determines the tense in which sense the Aorist is to be understood, that is, it may express momentary action i.e., a one-off act or action, or short temporary act or action that may have happened in the past, as opposed to a continued ongoing act or action.


 

 

Examples of the Aorist in the NT.

1 John 2:1 HCSB


"
My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ the Righteous One.”

 

Here the verb “Hamarte” (to sin) is in the Aorist and expresses a momentary sin, so a person may momentarily “commit a sin – does sin, sins”, now here is an important point that is to be remembered when it comes to the present tense verb “eimi” in John 8:58 and that is, to re-emphasis, like most Greek verbs in the present tense, as is “eimi”, such expresses a continued act or action and an example is to be seen in 1 John 3:6 See also 1 John 2:3; 3:9; 3 John 1:11).

Example of how a Present tense verb denotes continued action!

1 John 3:6
“No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.” NIV

“No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him.” BSB

Here we see the present tense verbs “
Hamartanei” (sinning) and “Hamartanon” (sinning) being rendered into English as, “keeps on sinning” and “continues sin”, though in the present tense, the context shows temporality, as a person can ‘keep on sinning, continues to sin’, up to the present, where the act or action of sinning continues from “Past Time”, “sinning” is involved, the use of the verbs “keep” and “continues” denote “time”, past time, and up to the present - “keeps on sinning” and “continues sin”.

Math 4:9

“and he said unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.” ERV

“…thou wilt do me homage.” Darby, Weymouth

“…thou mayest bow to me” YLT

Here in Math 4:9 we see that the verb “proskuneses” (do reverence, bow low, bow down, prostrate, do obeisance, worship…) is in the Aorist , Satan, after tempting Jesus and offering him everything, asks Jesus to “bow down” and perform a certain (one off) act, not a continuous action, that is, one that would be ongoing, one act of “bowing low” to Satan was all that he required for him to accomplish his purpose!

So, here we see how certain verbs used in certain contexts in which the Aorist is used, and even present tense verbs can denote that which is momentary (one off) or ongoing!

Voice?

When Greek uses the Middle Voice? (in English it is translated into the Active Voice)!

English does not use the Middle Voice, it is either Passive or Active, when reading some part of the bible in English and it is in the Active Voice, but, not sure whether in Greek it is Active or Middle Voice, we need to go to the original Greek, online bible sources with grammars can help to determine which Voice it being used!


The Middle Voice in Greek?

The Middle Voice in Greek is very common. Unlike the Active and the Passive Voice, with the Middle Voice the subject is combined with the act or action, the subject is both cause and the focal point of the act or action, the subject is simultaneously the one who does and is the recipient, the one affected by the act or action!

Here some examples:

“I tied my own shoe laces, I lifted myself up, I unlocked my door…!”

“My neighbour unlocked my car” Active.

 “My neighbour (subject) unlocked (verb) my car (object)”

“I unlocked my car” Middle.

“I (subject) unlocked (verb) my car (object)”

In the Middle Voice, the verb expresses both the subject and the object, “I” and the “my car”, we see that, the subject is combined with the act or action, the subject is both cause and the focal point of the act or action! English does not have this Middle Voice!

 

The word “Voice” is a term used to express whether a verb is Active or Passive.

 

Active and Passive Voice (examples)

“A dog bit my friend” this is in the active voice, the subject is the dog, as it does the doing (act or action) “bit my friend”.

Thus, the expression “Passive Voice” in a sentence or clause, points to the kind of sentence or clause, where the subject does ‘not’ do the doing, but is the recipient of the act or action of the verb, that is the one or thing doing the doing!


“Peter kissed Mary” Active

“Mary was kissed by Peter” Passive.

“The Titanic hit an Iceberg” Active

“An Iceberg was hit by the Titanic” Passive


An easy way to remember is that, the Active refers to the subject (person or thing) that does the doing, whereas, the Passive refers to the subject (person or thing) that was done to! Remember too, that the verb expresses the act or action, the doing or done to, so it can be said that, Passive will highlight the act or action of the verb and the object, not the subject, whereas, the Active highlights the act or action of the verb and the subject, not the object!

 

γενεαθαι (aorist middle infinitive)

Infinitive

Just what is the Infinitive, now that we have dealt with examples of the Aorist and Middle, as well as Voice (Including the Passive and Active Voice)?

Infinitives are verbs which are preceded by “to”, such as we see in “to say, to laugh, to aim, to do, to shout, to read…”! Infinitives are what we see in our dictionaries.



Let us now turn to John 8:58?

“Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." NASB

Pertinent part:

“…before Abraham was born, I am.”

Comment on “I am”!

The expression “I am” is not really a good translation from the original Greek for the reason that it is not nuanced, and it is in the wrong word order, it follows Greek word order and not proper English word order!

 

Original Greek

“εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.”

Pertinent part of the Greek:

“…πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.”

First I will deal with, “…πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι…”

Here we see “πρὶν” (before) an adverb relating to Past Time, a time before “Ἀβραὰμ” (Abraham) “γενέσθαι” (genesthai). What are we to make of “γενέσθαι”
(to become, to happen, to be born, to exist…) in relation to “before Abraham…”, remembering that “genesthai” is Aorist Middle Infinitive? The controlling verb in “…πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.” is “εἰμί”, this is a “to be” a present tense verb this, verb, and like most Greek verbs in the present tense, as is “eimi”, such express a continued or ongoing act or action and an example was seen in 1 John 3:6, where the present tense verbs “Hamartanei” (sinning) and “Hamartanon” (sinning) are used with a Past Time, ongoing up to the present time aspect and the Infinitive “genesthai” (to become, to happen, to be born…) in John 8:58 derives it time from the controlling verb “eimi”, a “to be” verb, and as previously noted, “eimi” a present tense verb is used with a past time sense, as “most Greek verbs in the present tense, as is “eimi”, such express a continued or ongoing act or action” See also 1 John 2:3; 3:9; 3 John 1:11 are examples of present tense verses having a Past Time sense, this is where “eimi” (the present tense of the Greek “to be” verb (ειμι) “was pressed into service for this purpose and the infinitive “genesthai” gets its time from the controlling verb which in J8:58 is ειμι.” - Timothy Lawson)

 

Thus, when we see “…πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.” (before Abraham genesthai (to become, to happen, to be born…) ending with “ἐγὼ εἰμί.” (ego eimi) this latter “ego eimi” has a Past Time, ongoing sense (even though it is a present tense verb) and because it is the controlling verb it time stamps “genesthai (to become, to happen, to be born…)”, thus, “genesthai” as many translators sense (because of the above) render, “…πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.” Into English variously as:

 “before Abraham was born, I was”
“before Abraham existed, I was”

“before Abraham existed, I have been”
“before Abraham born, I am”*

The “Today’s Living Bible” puts it very well:

“The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!”

Here we see the correct English order, Subject – Verb – Predicate Phrase (Object).

So, what was Jesus saying that others find so difficult to accept, as there was nothing complicated with the way he said it and made good sense to the hearers of his day; was he trying to claim some special title, that he was God, as Trinitarians do with their “I am” or “I AM”?, no, he simply said to his opposers that he had been existing, was alive long before Abraham ever existed, came into being, was born!

 

*Trinitarians try to use “I am” or “I AM” as a title that supposedly connotes “Deity, Identity…”, but this is theology, as this is not what John was saying, naturally it should be understood as, “I was in existence before Abraham was born/existed”!

Unitarians deny the person behind the name, Jesus, pre-existed, no matter what Jesus and others in the NT said!

 

A Note of Caution!

When looking through online bible websites caution must be used, as they are run by Trinitarians for Trinitarians and at times Trinitarian bias runs through them, this is seen in the way they render certain words from the Greek into English and how they use only popular Trinitarian bibles that do not have an impact on their Trinitarian theology and pander to such theology, yet at the same time omit many other translations that would allow readers to get a balanced view of certain matters and John 8:58 (and John 1:1) is one of them, as many other translations hidden from readers show something quite different! 


 

 

 

Examples from:  Prof. Dan Wallace’s, “Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics”



“Prin Abraham genesthai ego eimi”

Wallace says:

 

“If we are calling this use of the infinitive subsequent, why then are we translating it as before?

 

The reason is that this infinitive explicitly tells when the action of the controlling verb takes place, as in:

 

“the rabbit was already dead, before he aimed his rifle.”

 

In this sentence, “he aimed” is the infinitive and “was (already dead)” is the main verb. The dying comes before the aiming, or conversely, the aiming comes after the dying.”

 

My Notes:


Putting it another way, “before he aimed his rifle, the rabbit was already dead”

 

The infinitive is “he aimed” and “was (already dead)” is the main verb, the infinitive “he aimed” tells us when the act or action of the (controlling) verb takes place.

 

Breaking it down further:

“the rabbit was already dead before he aimed his rifle”

 

Or


“before he aimed his rifle the rabbit was already dead”


“before he aimed his rifle”, this is a “before” clause, just as in John 8:58, where we see “Before Abraham genesthai”, this is the “prin” (before) clause, as it includes the verb “genesthai”, just as, “before he aimed his rifle” includes the verb “aim”.

 

The term “before” is temporal and refers to a time “before he aimed his rifle”. The infinitive “he aimed” derives its time from the act or action of the verb “was” in “the rabbit “was” (already dead), both clauses are temporal of “Past Time” in meaning, the rabbit was already something, that something is, “was dead” hence, “the rabbit was already dead before he aimed his rifle.”

Harner uses several examples of the above where the infinitive informs us when the act or action of the (controlling) verb takes place and the one that is most simple as an example is seen in John 4:49

 

John 4:49

 

“κατάβηθι πρὶν ἀποθανεῖν τὸ παιδίον μου”

 

κατάβηθι (verb - aorist) “come down”

 

πρὶν (Adverb) “before

 

ἀποθανεῖν (verb – aorist infinitive) “dies”

 

τὸ (article) “the”

 

παιδίον (noun) “child”

 

μου (possessive pronoun) “of me”

 

The clause “come down before my child dies.”, and “the rabbit was already dead, before he aimed his rifle.”, are saying the same thing.

 

“come down before my child dies.”

Or we could say,

“before my child dies come down”

 

Here we have the controlling verb “come (down)” the infinitive “dies” gets it time from that controlling verb, the clause “before (my child dies)” is temporal and refers to a time “before”, that is, the words “before my child dies” are spoken.

 

Thus, the act or action “come down” comes “before” the act or action “my child dies”

Back to John 8:58?

The same grammatical principle above applied to John 8:58

 

“before Abraham was born, I am” NIV

Or

 

“I am, before Abraham was born”

“prin Abraham genesthai ego eimi”

As in the above examples, here we see the (infinitive) verb “genesthai” (to be, to become, to exist), it gets its timing from the controlling verb “eimi” (am), the clause “before Abraham was “genesthai” (to be, to become, to exist) is temporal, hence, “prin (before…)” is the temporal clause, and it gets its timing from the controlling verb “eimi”, and as noted from above,
“eimi”, like most Greek verbs in the present tense, as is “eimi”, such express a continued or ongoing act or action and an example was seen in 1 John 3:6 and the other examples above.

 

Thus, the act or action “eimi” (am) comes “before” the act or action of Abraham being born/existing and “eimi” is a simple present tense verb expressing existence and to re-emphasis:

“…
and as noted from above, “eimi”, like most Greek verbs in the present tense, as is “eimi”, such express a continued or ongoing act or action and an example was seen in 1 John 3:6 and the other examples above.”