A short exchange on PARA of John 17:5
The following is yet another exchange between a JW poster and Robert V. Frazier this time on the subject of whether or not Jesus actually, literally is "beside" or "alongside" that of God, the Father. This involved what function of the Greek preposition PARA plus dative, occuring twice, at John 17.5 has(there are several definite uses and see how the New World Translation renders John 17.5 here and compare with Kingdom Interlinear Translation). One will see that Frazier was not willing to admit that this preposition literally means "alongside" and when asked as to what function it is being employed here by John he makes up a novel meaning for it!
Originally Posted by jj3 What then did Stephen actually see at Acts 7.55. |
Frazier: A vision, of course. Even if Heaven were a physical location, such as another planet (as some of the ditzier televangelists have said), do you really think that Stephen could see individual people in such a location, from Earth, without even a telescope?
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Originally Posted by jj3 How were the "sons of God" able to "take their station before Jehovah" and "even Satan proceeded to enter right among them"(Job 1.6)? |
Frazier: How are you able to imagine any of that is talking about physical space and location? You are entering right among all of us on this forum. Are we all located in one physical room, that you entered by walking through a door? Is God less able to communicate than the internet is?
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Originally Posted by jj3 And of course, what did Jesus mean (according to John) at John 17.5 when he requested the Father that he "glorify PARA SEAUTW(the father)"? How does PARA function here? |
Frazier: It means, "just as you are glorified, to the same degree, for the same reasons". It does not mean, "glorified in the same location as you are glorified".
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Originally Posted by jj3 Have you read the reason why I said here a "literal position"? I said this because of what has expired on the Christadelphian board where I have discussed John 17.5 with two Christadelphians. |
Frazier: Nope, but whatever your reasons were, the conclusion is wrong. God has no literal position, so whatever your reasons, whatever your train of thought, it has led you to a false conclusion. I'll leave it to you to figure out where your train of thought went off the rails. Frankly, I'm not all that interested.
This ended Frazier's response. The following is the JW reply to his which Frazier never did respond back with any attempted rebuttal. Which is not surprising when one reads on!
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What then did Stephen actually see at Acts 7.55. |
I did not ask if it was a "vision" or not but what did he actually see, whether it was in a vison or not is neither here nor there. Now, care to answer my question now? Of course, I can answer it for you. Stephen 'saw' "Jesus standing at God's right hand," and Stephen said out loud: "Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God's right hand." This would be in accord with what Jesus requested of the Father at John 17.5. No one has denied that this means having authority also but this does not mean that Jesus, the "Son of man," is also not PARA God the Father in a spatial sense also and indeed this is what I have argued for in the thread that discusses John 17.5 over on the Christadelphian board but you have not a clue what transpired there because of a lack of "interest" on your part as you admit!
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How were the "sons of God" able to "take their station before Jehovah" and "even Satan proceeded to enter right among them"(Job 1.6)? |
Do you really think that the "sons of God" and even "Satan" did not come close in a spatial sense, in any way spirits can in heaven, to that of God in that scene of Job.1.6? I am sure they could communicate in many different ways but that's begging the question whether they actually do 'meet' up in a personal way from time to time. Even we do who use the internet to communicate do so why are you thinking that the angels and God do not or cannot do likewise? You are in effect making little argument against that there in Job 1.6 the angels did appear before the very person of God in whatever way spirits do and can. Note that it was also at a particular time, "there came a day." When we read that they "came to present themselves before Yahweh" the verb signifies "the appearance of courtiers before their king in order to make their reports and receive instructions."- Word Biblical Commentary, Job 1-20, D.J.A. Clines.
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And of course, what did Jesus mean (according to John) at John 17.5 when he requested the Father that he "glorify PARA SEAUTW(the Father)"? How does PARA function here? |
You did not answer my question to you how PARA plus dative functions here but just told me what the scripture means. However, what you did write bears little resemblance to what Jesus actually said and the Greek John used! What does BAGD say on this? It cites John 17.5 in a section where PARA has the function of "spatial proximity" does it not? Tasker, in his commentary in the Tyndale series, says that "The Greek idiom "PARA SEAUTW" is better represented by 'in thine own presence'(RSV) or 'at thy side' (knox)." Wallace say that PARA plus dative is "In general, the dative uses suggest proximity or nearness" and then gives four specific uses "a. Spatial: near, beside b. Sphere: in the sight of, before(someone) c. Association: with(someone/something) and d. Virtually equivalent to simple dative." Now, I do not see anything here which is the equivalent of your "to the same degree, for the same reasons"! Are you not making things up now? Please provide a grammatical work that support your thinking that PARA plus dative has this meaning here, twice mind, at John 17.5. Also, please provide examples from the GNT that has PARA plus dative with the function you give us above. Thankyou.
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Have you read the reason why I said here a "literal position"? I said this because of what has expired on the Christadelphian board where I have discussed John 17.5 with two Christadelphians. |
Then if you do not wish to go over to the Christadelphian board because you are "not interested" I suggest that it would have been better for you to keep your "thoughts" to yourself. But, whatever you wish. However, unless you get "interested" enough to go over there you will remain in your ignorance why I used the phrase "literal position" as I did! It is my belief that the scriptures do in fact show that God has his own particular place in the heavens that the other spirits could go and be in the very spiritual presence of God.(Compare Job.1.6, John 16.28, Heb.9.24) and this is exactly what Jesus requested of the Father in prayer at John 17.5.
End.
The Translator's New Testament reads at John 17.5: "Now glorify me at you side Father , with the glory which I had there before the world existed."-italics ours.
The New Testament in Modern Speech by R.F. Weymouth : "And now Father, do Thou glorify me in Thine own presence, with the glory that I had in Thy presence before the world existed."- italics ours
The Twentieth Century New Tesament: " and now do honour me, Father, at thy own side, with the honour which I had at thy side before the world began."-italics ours
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures: "So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." -italics ours
The Kingdom Interlinear of the Christian Greek Sciptures (WTB&TS): "and now glorify me you Father beside to-yourself(PARA SEAUTW)to-the glory which I-was-having before of-the the world to-be beside you(PARA SOI)."-italics and Greek words in brackets ours
From this we can see that Jesus requested that he be "alongside" the Father which was his 'location' in heaven prior to his becoming a man, "before the world existed." This shows he existed as a separate and distinct being from the Father "before the world existed" and had and has received from the Father a prime location in the spiritual heaven, and that is right beside the Father, God.
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