Wonderful Counsellor Isaiah 9:6

                                        Wonderful Counsellor Isaiah 9:6?

Wonderful Counsellor Isaiah 9:6 

Taken from: ‘thechristianexpositor.org’ web site. 

‘The Christian Expositor is a non-denominational, orthodox evangelical Christian group…’ The site says this: “Jehovah's Witnesses WHO IS Jesus Christ? Is He God?” ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 

"First, Jehovah’s Witnesses do not ask who is Jesus Christ. And, is He God? Jehovah’s Witnesses know who Jesus Christ is [he is the son of Jehovah] and do not subscribe to the Trinitarian view that he is God [Jehovah]. The Lord Jehovah is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ." 

The site shows its bias and a lack of insight in understanding what texts like, Judg 13:18-22; Isa 9:6; 11:1-3; Gen 18; and Gen 32 and others texts really convey. 

I have used the text from Judges 13:18-22 ASV that the site authors preferred to use. It must be remembered that the site’s authors are ‘Evangelicals’ and avowed Trinitarians and therefore their site information is biased and leans toward their theology, i.e. Trinitarian theology. 

You may be surprised at the findings when using various bible translations instead of just one or two that would seem to lean to a particular interpretational belief/theology. 

Other than the NWT, all other translations are the works of Trinitarian translator(s). It is my intention to show how the authors of this site have twisted and corrupted the scriptures and their meaning and misinforms unsuspecting readers. The site’s authors wish you to believe that Jesus is Jehovah (God) of the Hebrew Scriptures [O/T]. I have taken various [free online] bibles including the NWT to show how the site leaves out is the fact that The God of Israel [Jehovah] is never called an ‘angel’ or referred to as an angel! Also, the site leaves out other translations and how they translate Isaiah 9:6 -------------------------------------------------------- 

I will start with the: Isaiah 9: 6 NWT (Please, see (*)) For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called *Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. *Wonderful Counsellor can also read: Lit. “Wonder (Miracle) of a Counsellor,” or “Wonder, Counsellor,” M.; LXX, “The Angel of Grand Counsel”; Sy, “Wonder and Counsellor.” According to the Hebrew the titles are: *Pele-yo’ez-el-gibbor-avi-‘ad-sar-shalom. (See above: M, LXX and Sy) Five translation examples were chosen for this example. 

Please note the difference with these five Trinitarian bibles. Isaiah 9:6 five translations. Isaiah 9:6 (English Standard Version) 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called*Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Footnotes: Isaiah 9:6 Or is upon Isaiah 9:6 Or is called New International Version (NIV) 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called*Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Footnotes: Isaiah 9:6 or Wonderful, Counsellor Isaiah 9:6 (Amplified Bible) 6For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father [of Eternity], Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 (New King James Version) 6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 (Darby Translation) 6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. Now notice two of these Trinitarian translations and where they put the comma when it comes to ‘Wonderful’ and ‘Counsellor’. Isaiah 9:6 (Darby Translation): “…Wonderful, Counsellor,” Isaiah 9:6 (New King James Version)): “…Wonderful, Counsellor,” Now look at these other Trinitarian translations and notice where the translators put the comma (,). Isaiah 9:6 (English Standard Version): “…Wonderful Counsellor,” New International Version (NIV): “…Wonderful Counsellor,” Isaiah 9:6 (Amplified Bible): “…Wonderful Counsellor,” 

Why the sudden abrupt change (in punctuation) from “Wonderful Counsellor” to “Wonderful, Counsellor”? Certain Trinitarian translations differ one from another and are not consistent with each other. The reason is Trinitarian bias. Altering the flow of “Wonderful Counsellor” only and not the others (titles) is forcing the text to mean what the authors want it to mean! 

Why is it that “Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Are not changed also to “Mighty, God; Everlasting, Father…”? (bias) Altering the text in this way alters the meaning of Isaiah 9:6 and yet it will be noticed that the Trinitarian translators of the English Standard Version, New International Version, and the Amplified Bible show that they understand what is implicit in the text, that these are titles to be bestowed on the Messiah and therefore render the text, “Wonderful Counsellor” denoting a title like the rest of Isaiah 9:6. Please see (*) above. Notice in the following texts what would happen to this ‘twig/stump’ of Jesse when he turned up, and eventually, what the fulfilment of the prophesy would mean, and its outcome upon the foretold Messiah, and the effect he would have on the people. 

Isaiah 11:1-3 (New Living Translation) A Branch from David’s Line 1 Out of the stump of David’s family will grow a shoot— yes, a new Branch bearing fruit from the old root. 2 And the Spirit of the Lord will rest on him— the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord. 3 He will delight in obeying the Lord… Isaiah 11:1-3 (NWT) And there must go forth a twig out of the stump of Jes´se; and out of his roots a sprout will be fruitful. 2 And upon him the spirit of Jehovah must settle down, the spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the spirit of counsel and of mightiness, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah; 3 and there will be enjoyment by him in the fear of Jehovah. 

Zech.6:13 NWT And he himself will build the temple of Jehovah, and he, for his part, will carry [the] dignity; and he must sit down and rule on his throne, and he must become a priest upon his throne, and the very counsel of peace will prove to be between both of them. Zechariah 6:13 (New Living Translation) Yes, he will build the Temple of the Lord. Then he will receive royal honour and will rule as king from his throne. He will also serve as priest from his throne, and there will be perfect harmony between his two roles.’ Footnotes: Zechariah 6:13 Or There will be a priest by his throne. 

What are the above translations telling us about this ‘twig/stump’ of Jesse? 

The Lord here means Jehovah. the Spirit of the Lord will rest on him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord He will delight in obeying the Lord When the spirit of Jehovah rested on the Messiah what would this mean? The Christ of Jehovah would have, “wisdom, understanding, counsel and might, knowledge and he would delight in obeying the (Lord) Jehovah… The effect of all of this on the people that the Messiah would have, as a result of a fulfilling of the prophesy of Isaiah 9:6 Matthew 7:28 (Amplified Bible) When Jesus had finished these sayings [the Sermon on the Mount], the crowds were astonished and overwhelmed with bewildered wonder at His teaching. Mathew 7.28 NWT Now when Jesus finished these sayings, the effect was that the crowds were astounded at his way of teaching. Matthew 12:42 (Darby Translation) A queen of [the] south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, more than Solomon [is] here. 

Mathew 12:42 NWT The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but, look! something more than Solomon is here. Notice the result this had on the people: “The crowds were astonished and overwhelmed with bewilderment, wonder at His teaching” “the effect was that the crowds were astounded at his way of teaching.” Also, Jesus performed many wonderful miracles when he was on earth as Jehovah’s “twig/stump”. Please see (*) above. 

What the site authors try to do! 

What the Trinitarian authors of the site try and do, is to take the title “Wonderful Counsellor” (*) and proceed to disjoint it in such a way that that part of the title “Wonderful” is being used to refer to Jehovah. These are the lengths Trinitarians will go to, to prove their interpretation, belief, theology. 

The Trinitarian translations above do not even agree with each other in regard to Isaiah 9:6. Is it “Wonderful Counsellor” or “Wonderful, Counsellor”? A basic definition of the word “wonder” is to be: amazed, be in awe, astonishment etc. (*) The context shows that the prophesy of Isaiah 9:6 wasn’t using “Wonderful Counsellor” or “Wonderful, Counsellor”, or even “Wonderful” on its own (no matter which way the words are put) to identify Jesus with Jehovah. No, the context shows that, because Jehovah’s spirit would be with Jesus the true Messiah (rest on him), people would stand in amazement, in awe, incredulous, speechless, bewildered, in wonder at this “Wonderful” miracle worker having more wisdom than even Solomon. 

The people would have seen nothing or heard nothing of the like…The people would be astounded, amazed, dumbfounded, astonished… at his way of teaching… *Wonderful Counsellor can also read: Lit. “Wonder (Miracle) of a Counsellor,” or “Wonder, Counsellor,” M.; LXX, “The Angel of Grand Counsel”; Sy, “Wonder and Counsellor.”  

Next, this Evangelical site tries (yet again) to use scripture to prove that Jesus is Jehovah. 

So, if I understand this correctly (see below), the Trinitarian Evangelical site authors are saying that, Jesus is Jehovah (the same as the LDS)and therefore God, but not God the Father (same as LDS)! So, we have God and God the Father and the authors use the texts below to prove this. 

These are the words taken directly of the above Evangelical web site. Judges 13:18-22. ASV “Nine times in this passage He is referred to as the Angel of 'Jehovah': in verses 3, 9, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21. But then, in verse 22, He is said to be God Himself. Note also in verse 18 that this Angel's name is "Wonderful." The web site authors are correct in the above verses in that these verses refer to Jehovah’s angel 9 times. But when it comes to v22 the same authors show a blatant case of twisting the Hebrew text to make it fit Trinitarian theology. The authors cite the case of Manoah and his wife in Judges 13:18-22 emphasising v22. First they say that it is Jehovah’s angel “the angel of Jehovah”, then turn and say that this same angel, who is Jehovah’s angel, is God, Jehovah Himself, because of what is said on the basis of the above verses up to v21. 

Let’s look at vss 21 and 22 of Judges 13. Judges 13:21, 22 RSV (Catholic Edition) 

“…then Manoah knew that he was the angel of the Lord” “And Manoah said to his wife, “we shall surely die, for we have seen God”. 

Was the angel actually God? Was he Jehovah? Did Manoah and his wife actually see God with their own eyes? The text just says “angel of Jehovah” and adds nothing else to it. Turn your bible to Genesis 16 a familiar account about the troubles in Abraham’s household, between Sarai (Sarah) and Hagar. V7 lets us know that Jehovah’s angel finds Hagar in the wilderness. Note that it just says “Jehovah’s angel” it doesn’t specify any particular angel and supplies no name, yet we have Hagar saying, Genesis 16:13 (American Standard Version) “And she called the name of Jehovah that spake unto her, Thou art a God that seeth: for she said, Have I even here looked after him that seeth me?” (ASV) Gen 32: 24-30 New American Standard Bible (NASB) Jacob Wrestles 24Then Jacob was left alone and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. 25When he saw that he had not prevailed against him, he touched the socket of his thigh; so the socket of Jacob's thigh was dislocated while he wrestled with him. 26Then he said, "Let me go, for the dawn is breaking." But he said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me." 27So he said to him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Jacob." 28 He said, "Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed." 29Then Jacob asked him and said, "Please tell me your name." But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name?" And he blessed him there. 30So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved." Footnotes: Genesis 32:28 I.e. he who strives with God; or God strives Genesis 32:30 I.e. the face of God The angel asks Jacob the “man”, “What is your name?” Jacob replies! Jacob asks the angel for his name, the angel does not reply! In v28 the angel said that Jacob had contended with God. 

In v30 Jacob said that he had seen God face to face and lived. In Genesis 18 the same can be said for angels (three men) meeting Abraham and one of them was Jehovah. 

In v22 of Gen18 it says the “men” went off but Jehovah stayed with Abraham. Now, in Gen 19 it says “the two angels arrived at Sodom…” Where was the other, the third one? Well, he stayed with Abraham as in Gen 18:22; this one was called Jehovah. 

So, Abraham, Sarah, Hagar, Jacob and Manoah and his wife actually saw angels and then said as a result of their experience, that they had seen God (Jehovah) face to face, as it were! So, did they actually see Jehovah God Face to face? 

Do angels at times speak in the place of God (the Father), as if they were God themselves? Ex 3:2 Exodus 3:2 (New American Standard Bible) The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed. Ex 23:20 NWT “Here I am sending an angel ahead of you to keep you on the road and to bring you into the place that I have prepared.” 

Other examples of angels speaking, as if they were the true God. The angel who delivered God’s message to Moses at the burning thornbush was also a spokesman. He is identified as Jehovah’s angel at Exodus 3:2, where we are told: “Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush.” Verse 4 says: “When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush.” In verse 6, this angelic spokesman for God said: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” So when speaking with this personal representative of God, Moses spoke as if he were speaking to Jehovah himself.—Exodus 4:10. In the 6th chapter of Judges, we find another example of a man speaking to God through an angelic representative. Verse 11 identifies the message bearer as “Jehovah’s angel.” There we read: “Later Jehovah’s angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while Gideon his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Midian.” 

This messenger, “Jehovah’s angel,” is thereafter represented as if he were Jehovah [God the Father] himself. In verses 14 and 15, we read: “Upon that Jehovah faced [Gideon] and said: ‘Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Midian’s palm. Do I not send you?’ In turn he said to him: ‘Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel?’” So the materialized angel seen by Gideon and with whom he spoke is represented in the Biblical account as if he were God himself. 

In verse 22, Gideon says: “I have seen Jehovah’s angel face to face!” The angel spoke precisely what God told him to speak. Therefore, Gideon spoke with God through this angelic spokesman. Now it is possible to understand why Abraham addressed the materialized angelic spokesman of God as if he were talking to Jehovah God himself. Since this angel spoke precisely what God wanted to have said to Abraham and was there personally representing Him, the Biblical record could say that “Jehovah appeared to him.”—Genesis 18:1. 

Remember that an angelic spokesman for God could transmit His messages just as precisely as a mobile phone or a radio can transmit our words to another person today in the 21st Century. Hence, it can be understood how Abraham, Moses, Manoah, and others could speak with a materialized angel as if they were talking to God. While such individuals were able to see these angels and the glory of Jehovah reflected by them, they were not able to see God. Therefore, this in no way contradicts the apostle John’s statement: “No man has seen God at any time.” (John 1:18) In contradiction to the Evangelical web site. What these men saw were angelic representatives and not God himself. So, all the individuals above saw God face to face. 

What they saw in reality was an angelic representative of Jehovah God, acting as if they were Jehovah and not actually the person of God, Jehovah. If the Queen of England, who might weigh 9 stones and is 80 years old and is 5 foot 5 inches and wears a size 6 shoe, sends out one of her ambassadors to another country, and he is 6 foot 4 inches, weighs 170 pounds, is 40 years of age and wears a size 10 shoe, he is her legal representative (Shaliah= a Jewish legal term). He carries all the power and authority invested in him to carry out the Royal will. It is as if he were Elizabeth. He would be a reflection of the will of the Royal Sovereign, an ambassador, stepping in, substituting for the Queen of England. Eleazar is the first mentioned Shaliah (intermediary). Put it another way, a man's shaliah was as the man himself. This means that the shaliah had the power of attorney and was authorized to act in the place (stead) of the person he or she represented. Eleazar acted as if he was Abraham, in the execution of that ones will i.e. a wife for his son Isaac. He was Abraham’s ambassador, substituting for him. The apostles were substitutes for Christ Eph 6:18-20; 2Cor 5:20 2 Cor 5:20 NWT ”We are therefore ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making entreaty through us. As substitutes for Christ we beg: “Become reconciled to God.” 2 Corinthians 5:20 (Amplified Bible) ”So we are Christ's ambassadors, God making His appeal as it were through us. 

We [as Christ's personal representatives] beg you for His sake to lay hold of the divine favour [now offered you] and be reconciled to God.” The apostles stood in the place of Christ (in his stead), and being “ambassadors substituting for Christ” places serious restrictions upon God’s representatives who are new creatures in union with Christ. 

What are these restrictions? Those similar to the restrictions that rest upon ambassadors of the political nations. Not only today, but also in Bible times, ambassadors had no right to meddle in the politics of foreign nations to which they were sent. (Luke 19:12-15, 27) They might make an appeal to those foreign governments, or even a protest, but they must strictly keep out of the politics of such alien nations. They must be loyal to their own home government and jealously take care of its interests when they are dealing with foreign governments. If they do not do this, they can be refused recognition or their credentials be turned down and their presence in the land can be denied. So, the angels who visited Abraham, Manoah etc were Jehovah’s ambassadors, legal representatives, (Shaliach) not meddling in any affair except doing the will of their Sovereign Jehovah.  

From the above web site. 

"In the earlier study of Isaiah 9:6, it was pointed out that "pele", the Hebrew word for "Wonderful," is only used of God, never of man, or an angel. The very fact that He claims this name for Himself shows that He is not a common angel, but God Himself. And, of course, the title belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ" 

Judges 13:17, 18 NWT Then Manoah said to Jehovah’s angel: “What is your name, that when your word comes true we shall certainly do you honour?” 18 However, Jehovah’s angel said to him: “Just why should you ask about my name, when it is a wonderful one?” 

"...Wonderful," is only used of God, never of man, or an angel."

"However, Jehovah’s angel said to him: “Just why should you ask about my name, when it is a wonderful one?” 

Judges 13:18 (New American Standard Bible) But the angel of the LORD said to him, "Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?" Footnotes: Judges 13:18 I.e. incomprehensible Judges 13:18 (New Living Translation) “Why do you ask my name?” the angel of the LORD replied. “It is too wonderful for you to understand.” Judges 13:18 (King James Version) And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret? Judges 13:18 (New International Version - UK) 1 He replied, why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding. Judges 13:18 Jerusalem Bible And the Angel of Yahweh replied, ‘why ask my name? It is a mystery.’ Judges 13:18 The Bible an American Translation. By E. J. Goodspeed “Why do you ask for my name,” the angel of the Lord said to him, “seeing that it is ineffable.” 

Judges 13:18 The bible in living English. By S T Byington But the angel of Jehovah said to him “what do you ask my name for, when it is mysterious.” If you look at the above texts on Judges 13:18 you will notice (and in a footnote) a very big difference in wording, giving the said text a different contextual understanding and not as the authors are implying. The translators of the above various translations are making explicit what is implicit and their findings are simply saying: ‘A wonderful one, wonderful (footnote- incomprehensible), It is too wonderful for you to understand, it is secret, It is beyond understanding, It is a mystery, seeing that it is ineffable, it is mysterious.’ 

The above does not have the same connotation that the site authors will like you to believe, but the above shows the very opposite. You decide for yourself. Where does he ‘claim this name for himself?’ The above uses the word “Wonderful”. The context of the various translations below belie the claim made by the site authors, that “Wonderful” in this context has a special meaning, that it applies to Jesus and that because of this, Jesus is Jehovah and therefore Jesus and Jehovah are one and the same, but not God the Father. So, in this context we have God and God the Father. This belief is not a Bible teaching, but extra biblical. It has its roots outside the bible. Its origins lie in the metaphysics of Greek and Oriental philosophy. 

This Evangelical site turns everything upside down. 

It makes an angel Jehovah, Jesus is “Wonderful” therefore must be Jehovah, Jesus is Jehovah because Jehovah appeared as an angel, therefore, Jesus must be an angel! 

Yes, this is what the authors site says (below): “Isa 9:6: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. So who had all of these Old Testament figures been speaking with? Manoah said unto his wife, 'We shall surely die, because 'we have seen God.' They recognised that they had seen and spoken to God - to 'Jehovah'. 

But it could not have been God the Father because we read the words of Jesus: John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. So none of these appearances of the 'angel' shown to be 'Jehovah' could be God the Father, for He has never been seen by man at any time (John 1:18).” But, do not forget the principle of the SHALIAH! 

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